Ron Hamel, PhD, a former member of SSM Health's Board of Directors and Senior Ethicist at CHA, joins Inside Out to discuss the importance of spiritual doctrines like prayer and examine Bernhard Häring's influence on his life and work.
Darren Henson (00:13):
Hi, I am Darren Henson and this is Inside Out a podcast of the Catholic Health Association on the inner life and spirituality of Leaders across Catholic health care. I'm joined today by longtime friend of CHA and friend to many of us across the ministry, Dr. Ron Hamel. And you know, Ron, when I was thinking of this series, when this idea came up amongst several of us to talk a little bit about the inner life, and some might call it spirituality in some ways, you came to mind for me because there's a lot that we know about each other with regards to our professional accomplishments, our contributions that we've made to Catholic health care. But a lot of times we maybe don't take the opportunity to sit with one another to say, well, what was behind some of that? Or what was it that animated within you that sustained you during different times of our own professional lives and the work that we do across Catholic health care? So maybe I just want to begin by not only saying thank you for sitting down with us and having this opportunity, but maybe just really broadly, what is spirituality for you? What does that mean when you even hear that come up?
Ron Hamel, PhD (01:31):
So it's been said that Cardinal Ratzinger was once asked, how many ways are there to God? And he said, as many ways as there are people, and I suspect that there are as many definitions of spirituality as there are people. I tend to see spirituality as in a very generic way. I'd see it as a way of life in response to something transcendent - that's a generic view from a more Christian view. I see spirituality as a way of life in response to God's invitation to fellowship.
(02:19):
But the key thing there is you have the transcendent element, you have an element of meaning and there's a response to that. It's a way of life. And to me that is spirituality. Years ago, quite a few years ago, probably, maybe even more than 40 years ago, a colleague and friend gave me a framed print, and on the print was Micah 6:8. This is what God asks of you, only this to act justly, love tenderly, and walk humbly with your God. And that sums up, I think my spirituality or my view of spirituality. That sits on my dresser. It's been there for over 40 years. Every day I see this and it's a reminder. I would reverse those. I would say walk humbly with your God, act justly and love tenderly. But that seems to me kind of sums it all up.
Darren Henson (03:25):
Ron, what was coming up for me is you were just in your opening words, you linked this right away to a sense of God, the transcendent. And ultimately what I was hearing is this sense of deep mystery as you were quoting Ratzinger. There's as many different ways of understanding who God is as there are people suggest God is this sense of ultimate mystery of something that we're constantly journeying into our understanding of it. It was once described to me that mystery is not just something to be solved, but rather it is something that is infinitely knowable. We'll never exhaust our own understanding of this mystery. And you just connected that to spirituality by saying, spirituality is to walk humbly with God to walk, as I was hearing you say that, to walk into this mystery continuously and things will continue to unfold. We'll continue to discover things about God, and presumably we'll discover things about ourselves too as we do that. It's also fascinating. I think that in your opening words, you referred to Cardinal Ratzinger at the time later, Pope Benedict XVI, but a theologian, and we know you as a theologian oftentimes here in Catholic health care. That's I think when many people think of Ron Hamel, we think of you as a moral theologian first and foremost. And in the Catholic tradition, there's long been this, I might call it two foci of theology and then spirituality. Sometimes they're seen as different sides of the equation. Sometimes they're seen in tension. How do you understand that interplay between theology and spirituality?
Ron Hamel, PhD (05:22):
So there's been an interesting history there. Initially, if we look from the days of the gospels on through for centuries, there was no separation between theological reflection, spirituality - they were intertwined. In the 16th century after or with the Council of Trent, they became separated and they've remained separated until the late 19th century, the early 20th century. So Trent emphasized sin and avoidance of sin. It established seminaries to train priests who would then be the judges of what is a sin and what is not a sin, and how bad a sin it is.
Darren Henson (06:17):
The confessional.
Ron Hamel, PhD (06:18):
The confessional. And these manuals were developed to assist priests in making those judgements. Those early manuals eventually evolved into the manuals of moral theology and the manuals of moral theology. Basically, the focus there was on sin and avoidance of sin, rigid obedience to law, rigid obedience to moral principles, and it's separated spirituality from theology. So there evolved a separate discipline of spiritual theology,
(07:04):
But spiritual theology was intended primarily for clergy and religious, and spiritual theology was divided into ascetical theology and mystical theology. But it was out there for those individuals, not for the layperson. Back in the late 19th century and early 20th century that began to change. German theologians began to go back to the gospels and to root the moral life in the gospels. And among those individuals was Bernhard Häring. For Bernhard Häring, there's no division between moral theology, the moral life and spirituality, they're intertwined. There's no division you don't find in all his writings, I mean he wrote, he had his three volumes. The Law of Christ yet is three volume, Free and Faithful in Christ, numerous other books, you don't find a separate section on spirituality. It's all part of the moral life. It's all part of the Christian life. And that's the key thing.
(08:26):
So for Häring, this is kind of the way I see spirituality, the key thing for Häring was the fundamental notion of his moral theology is God's self-revelation to human beings and the invitation of human beings to respond to that invitation. That's where Häring starts. The epitome, the paradigm of that response, of course, is Jesus, the perfect human response to God's call to love and to relationship. So discipleship became another core element of Häring's moral theology. And then from there, basically spirituality is discipleship. Spirituality is living out the life of discipleship. So it's all intertwined. There are no... in his moral theology, which has greatly influenced me. Some months ago I was reading an article that I had written on Häring, and as I was reading that I kept thinking, oh my gosh, that's how I think. I hadn't realized the influence, but there's been a profound influence there. So that has also... so my understanding of moral theology of the Christian moral life undergirds my understanding of spirituality. It's basically the life of discipleship. It's walking humbly with God. It's all of that.
(10:01):
The other thing that was really important to Häring, which is important to me as well, is Häring spoke... a couple of things. Häring spoke of acquiring the right vision that was very important for him. And the right vision is a vision that's shaped by the gospel, shaped by the scriptures. And that contributes also to the formation of character. Other theologians also shaped my thinking about that two Protestant theologians, James Gustafson and Stanley Hauerwas, they both talked about character. And so the moral life is not only about action, which was the emphasis in the past, it's also about who we are and who we're becoming. And it's probably primarily about that because who we are and who we're becoming is going to have a profound influence on what we do.
Darren Henson (11:03):
Yeah, that's fascinating. Ron, you put a lot out there on the table with those. What I think I'm hearing you say is it's almost like the inner life, this movement of God that we sense in our lives, stirs up our inner self, our spirituality that feeds then the intellectual life of, in your case, the moral theology that as you started, you said, it begins with God's movement in our lives and us following, walking humbly with God, that reflecting on what has moved and stirred within us seamlessly is a part then of the intellectual life that happens in theology, that happens in moral discourse, that happens other activities, if you will, within the church.
(11:57):
The other thing that I appreciate that you helped at least clarify for me is this idea that what might've been an unforeseen foreseen, consequence or outflow of the Council of Trent was how spirituality, and especially as you were beginning to say that, I was thinking, oh, the mystic, there were so many great mystics around that time, but you pinpointed saying, but they were religious, they were religious women, and they were religious men or priests. And that I think is why in some ways this series and these conversations on spirituality among mostly largely the lay leaders now in Catholic health care is really important for us because for such a long time, spirituality within the laity and those of us who are a part of this ministry of the church has been dormant or at least has not been in conversation. And you helped us understand why something like this can be a benefit to us in Catholic health care.
Ron Hamel, PhD (13:06):
And then Vatican II affirmed the universal call to holiness. Absolutely. So call to holiness of all people, not just religious, not just priests, but everyone is called to holiness. Yeah. How do we do that? How do we do that? I think there's a number of ways we do that.
Darren Henson (13:26):
How do you do that? Or what are some practices or things that you've seen in others that you've witnessed or admired who might live what we'd call lives of holiness?
Ron Hamel, PhD (13:37):
Yeah. So, I think there are a number of things in my life that feed my spirituality. So, one is prayer, and that's probably a really important one. So every morning I begin with morning prayer. I give us this day into the morning prayer there. And then after that I'll read the readings of the day and spend a little bit of time meditating on those readings. Because I think reflection on scripture readings is critical for formation of that vision that Häring talks about formation of character. And by character, I mean our beliefs, our dispositions, our attitudes, our inclinations, our motives, our habits, all of that stuff. That's all part of our character of who we are. So that's one of the things. One of my favorite, and this relates to prayer as well. One of my favorite scripture passages is 1 Kings 19 with Elijah.
(14:52):
There are a couple of things in that passage that speak powerfully to me, but one is when he's taking refuge in the cave, and God says to him, “Elijah, what are you doing here?” Because Elijah has fled from his ministry because his life is threatened. So he's hiding in the cave. What are you doing here? And then God says to him, go out to the opening of the cave and I'll pass by. And then the text reads, there was this huge wind, there was an earthquake that was flyer, and the text says, God was not in the wind. God was not in the earthquake. God was not in the fire. And then there was this quiet whisper. And that whole notion of a quiet whisper and the need to listen for that quiet whisper is important to me. So there are times, obviously, when there's a need to sit back and to be quiet and to listen for that quiet whisper. So, prayer is one thing -
Darren Henson (16:08):
And you do that in the mornings.
Ron Hamel, PhD (16:09):
I do that in the mornings.
Darren Henson (16:11):
As kind of a regular practice. That's when you can tap into the potential of a quiet whisper coming to you.
(16:21):
The other thing I appreciate, Ron, about what you were just saying is that earlier you had referenced how for hearing the scriptures were really important for the model in which how is it that we live out this life, this life of discipleship? And then you followed that up by saying you yourself have this practice of grounding your day, grounding your spirituality, grounding your own sense of how is it that you're going to move in the world? And that's how you can walk humbly with God is you encounter God then through the scriptures, through the very word of God.
Ron Hamel, PhD (17:04):
Yeah. So, prayer is one. The other thing, I love nature, and the other practice is to be in nature because nature speaks to me of the divine. And so, one of my practices is every Sunday I typically go to early mass. Every Sunday, almost every Sunday, I'll walk either in the botanical gardens or forest park. And that puts me in touch with the divine as well. And it's a centering thing. It's a healing thing that's important to me. And then typically for the past number of years, come October, I go to the Rockies and the majesty of the mountains is just absolutely incredible. And that too for me is it's a quasi-retreat. Part of that is listening to that whisper, that quiet whisper, but also, I mean just the majesty of the mountains and the beauty of nature. So that too is a really important thing.
(18:21):
Liturgy is an important thing, particularly I would say the liturgy of the word. Again, it's that formative thing, the liturgy of the word. And that calls us in liturgy to live that out. It makes no sense to be part of liturgy if we leave liturgy without a sense that we're being called to live out something beyond that liturgy. And also for me, one of the... I really appreciate John the Evangelist rather than the institution of the Eucharist, he has the washing of the feet. And to me that in a sense is the meaning. What he does there is he focuses on at least a large part of the meaning of the institution, of the Eucharist. It's the washing of the feet, its service, it's care for those in need, et cetera, et cetera. But that too is a call to go out. And the gospel is very clear. Jesus washes his feet. He said, look what I've done, and I've given you the example, and you go out and do this yourself. So there's that element of liturgy as well. It's a call to go out to ministry.
Darren Henson (19:45):
Exactly. Exactly. We leave there, go forth now with your lives to love and serve the Lord. And that foot washing narrative is so I think rich for us in Catholic health care, I often think of, I know a hospital that has that as a stained glass window in their chapel, very close to where the altar is exactly for that purpose. Because as you said, it's John's, the gospel writer, his version of what Eucharist is. And I often think, how many feet are being washed today across Catholic health care and our long-term care ministries in rehab centers, wherever, that this is the model of what we're doing. We love one another. We're embodying the presence of Christ Jesus through this ministry that we have.
Ron Hamel, PhD (20:39):
The other model of what we're doing, which has been important for me for years and years and years, is the parable of the good Samaritan.
(20:51):
In a sense that for me is kind of the paradigm of what walking humbly with God means. Pope Francis in his Fratelli tutti, has, I think it's a second chapter, it has this marvelous reflection on the parable of the Good Samaritan. Very, very powerful. And he's got a line in there. He says, every day we need to make a decision. Who are we going to be in that parable? Are we going to be the wounded man in the road, the robber, the passersby or the Samaritan? And he said, during the course of our lives, we're probably each one of those, but every day there's a decision, which one of those am I going to be? And that for me is just a powerful, it's a powerful image. It's a powerful motivation. It's powerful inspiration. So, I refer to that pretty frequently, that too is really important.
Darren Henson (21:53):
That spiritual practice of simply being aware of raising to our consciousness. How is it that I want to be in the world today? And that story of the Good Samaritan points to just different archetypes in many ways of what we can embody. And even in the course of a day, we might pass through a couple of those different characters. Exactly. Exactly. And then we have to call ourselves back to the character that we want to be.
Ron Hamel, PhD (22:20):
Exactly. And that to me raises another thing. I don't do this every single day, but frequently enough I do. As I'm getting ready for bed at night, the Jesuit Examen. It's like, how did this day go? Where did I experience God's grace? Where could I have done better? Because I just think it's important to reflect on which of the characters in the Good Samaritan parable have I been today, and what do I need to change to do that better? One of the key elements of Bernhard Häring's moral theology as well as my own moral theology is conversion, ongoing conversion, what's critical. But we need to be intentional about that and self-reflective about that. Not to beat ourselves, but to be self-reflective and what went well, where did I live true to what I wanted, who I want to be, and where does there need to be changed? So that too, it's a helpful practice.
(23:36):
Again, it's not every night, but frequently, several times a week, certainly while I'm getting ready for bed, I don't sit down and go the various steps of the examen.
Darren Henson (23:48):
But you've embodied it. Exactly. The principle of just looking back on your own day. Yeah. I mean, I know for myself sometimes it's sitting down at the dinner table, and as I'm giving thanks for this, before I give thanks for that meal, I maybe just think, where was the goodness today, at least to this point in the day? What were those moments of grace or where were these glimmers of goodness? We can sit and bemoan all the things that didn't get done today, or all the challenges and the problems that came up through emails and meetings and conferences and things left unfinished. But yeah, it's really important, I think, this day and age to just take a few moments and say, where was the good in this day, in this moment? And what I really appreciate that you've just really candidly and lovingly laid out for us, Ron too, is that that own individual practice then too, of saying, okay, where am I with regards to who I am? Where do I need to grow? Yet there's parts of me that are incomplete that still can perhaps reflect a little bit more light where, okay, give me some, I need some grace here to grow in this space.
Ron Hamel, PhD (25:13):
It's a journey. And walk humbly, walk humbly. Yeah, it's a journey. And so, we're constantly trying to live out the best we can and conversion is central to that. I believe
Darren Henson (25:33):
You had signaled and said that Häring has been important to you. And so I was brushing up a little bit on him, and I haven't studied him nearly as much as you have, but I'm familiar with one little book that I came across several years back that he wrote that was called In Pursuit of Wholeness, Healing in the Church Today, or something like that as the subtitle, but just a very, very small little book that really does read a lot like spirituality, and it touches upon a lot of the things that you've talked about here. But I just found it interesting that he himself was interested in this notion of linking the moral theological tradition with a spirituality behind it to this understanding of healing that in order for us to be whole, we have to tend to all these different parts of who we are. And some of the folks that I was reading with regards to hearing exactly what you summarized so beautifully said, he utilized all these different aspects of the tradition. It wasn't just moral theology, but he brought in liturgy, he brought in scripture, he brought in this sense that we have to embody all of these different things here. So, I'm appreciative for what it is that you brought forward there.
Ron Hamel, PhD (27:00):
I'm sorry. Häring himself was an extremely holy man. He exuded holiness. I had the privilege while I was still in grad school. I had finished coursework, but he came to Fordham and he taught a course in medical ethics, so I was able to sit in on the course, I was doing my dissertation on Häring and his medical ethics. So, I sat in on the class and was able to meet with him several times, had dinner with him a couple of times, but he exuded holiness. So, it's no surprise that his moral theology reflects that wholeness. I mean, it's him that basically gets translated into the page that gets articulated in his vision of the moral life and the moral life for him is the Christian life. I mean, biblically-based and Christocentric. Those are the two key elements of his moral theology. But it comes out of his own deep, deep, deep spirituality and holiness.
Darren Henson (28:09):
Say more about holiness. When you say he exudes holiness, what does that look like? Or what was it that you encountered that helps you to name that as holiness?
Ron Hamel, PhD (28:21):
That's an interesting question. It was just who he was and how he acted and how he spoke and what he said. And again, there was no separation of religious practices from his understanding of the moral life. I mean, there was this... everything was integrated and deeply, deeply religious, deeply. He exuded a deep relationship with God, a deep sense of discipleship, fed by prayer, by liturgy, by all of that stuff. He was just profoundly holy. And he exuded that.
Darren Henson (29:09):
I'm imagining. Ron, would you say that especially as a graduate student working on a dissertation, sometimes there's a sense of walking into that professor's office of intimidation and how am I going to be received and are they going to be overly critical of whatever it is that I'm working on or not agree with the perspective I may think I want to take in this writing? And so, I'm wondering, for you, was it a sense of hospitality? Was it a sense of graciousness that he extended to you? Was it a sense of openness and curiosity to hear what it is that you were working on?
Ron Hamel, PhD (29:51):
Yeah, he was very gracious, very kind, willing to spend time, willing to discuss. He also had a bit of a temper, which was really quite interesting. We didn't always agree. And on occasion, I did see that other side of him. He had this German temper. I did experience that. But other than that, he was extremely gracious, very kind, kind, soft-spoken, generous with his time.
Darren Henson (30:29):
Yeah, I was reading, and I didn't realize this, that back in the day it was publicly said that he was a quasi-father to Gaudium et spes. He was at the council. He had significant influence on a lot of different things, but I never realized that he was one of the major visionaries behind Gaudium et spes or the constitution of the church and the modern world, which is very important to us in Catholic health care. This idea that the church goes out into the world or is open to the world, but we go out to serve and to help transform the world, to bring it closer to a vision of God's justice, reign, and peace. And I think many of us have some of those opening lines in the top of our head with regards to Gaudium et spes, that beautiful line about the joys and the hopes, the griefs and the anguish of the world are the same joys and hopes, the griefs and the anguish of the people of God, those of us who see ourselves as part of the church. And I thought to myself, that really takes a spiritual depth to share in other people's griefs and anguish, but also in their joys and hopes that right there in this major document from the council, it presumes a spirituality underneath it.
Ron Hamel, PhD (32:01):
It does. The other thing about Häring is that he was, besides being gracious and kind and patient, usually patient, he was very pastoral. And that was such a contrast. You see this in his moral theology, but it's also part of his spirituality. He was not judgmental, which is the antithesis of the manuals of moral theology. And that holds tradition, which was extremely judgmental. He paid a price for that. I mean, he, it's interesting because I think we see in Pope Francis today, many of the characteristics of Häring, Pope Francis's notion of discernment, his notion of taking people where they're at, meeting people where they're at and walking with them, accompanying them. Those are themes that - they may not be entirely discernment, certainly is explicit in Häring. His decision-making process is discernment. And that's why his emphasis on vision and character is so critical because the sermon comes out of who we are. So, who we are makes a huge difference in decision-making. But he was pastoral and he was understanding, he was nonjudgmental. And so, I think that pastoral sense comes through in Gaudium et spes. I mean, he was also instrumental, and I think it was probably the document on the priesthood, reforming moral theology to make it more biblically and based and Christocentric, that was Häring, primarily Häring.
Darren Henson (34:04):
Wow. Yeah. Wow. As you're saying, your experience of him was very non-judgmental. And another way of saying that maybe is pastoral. I'm just thinking that takes enormous spiritual depth to be at home in one's own self, so much that whatever the other person says, you don't have to react to. You don't have to come at it with a defensive baton. So, first of all, you have to really be grounded yourself and then recognize where the other person is at in the moment and give them the freedom to express whatever they need to express wherever they're at with whatever the topic happens to be or the issue of the moment. But that can only happen when people have done their own inner work, whatever that may be, looks like. Some of us call it spirituality, sometimes it's spirituality, sometimes it comes from other avenues as well within the world around us. But yeah.
Ron Hamel, PhD (35:14):
Yeah, absolutely true. I mean he was clearly... he was at ease recognizing people, meeting people where they were at in their lives. And part of that was he saw the moral life also as a journey and the need for conversion. And he also emphasized the whole notion of growth, growth in the spiritual life, growth in the moral life. And that for him was another key element. And so, he looked to that, OK, this is where you are now. Where can you go?
Darren Henson (35:56):
Where can we grow?
Ron Hamel, PhD (35:57):
Where can we grow? And that whole notion of continual conversion, continual change, continual growth.
Darren Henson (36:02):
Growth has a little more appeal, I think, than for maybe a lot of folks than conversion. Conversion sounds scary, and it sounds pretty drastic. It's like Paul being thrown off his horse at a lightning strike. Most of us don't get to experience that, but rather this notion of growth,
Ron Hamel, PhD (36:20):
It's ongoing growth.
Darren Henson (36:21):
And gradual. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah, that's great. That's cool.
Ron Hamel, PhD (36:27):
And I think that's a key element of the spiritual life. It's growth, its ongoing growth.
Darren Henson (36:32):
Exactly. Being committed to that.
Ron Hamel, PhD (36:35):
Which requires some degree of self-reflection, which requires certain honesty with oneself, which requires allowing oneself to be shaped and formed by the scriptures, by the gospel, being receptive, being open.
Darren Henson (36:56):
And then discernment as you're saying, you're putting on the table. Something else that's really critical for us is then reflecting on where is growth needed? And perhaps at times, what needs to be pruned away? Where are the areas where, no, maybe we can't grow in this area right now, or that's not the most opportune way and place for us to grow. We need to grow in this place. But I really appreciate for you bringing up discernment because ultimately it is a spiritual practice, and our own experiences of discernment across the Catholic health care ministry can only be as effective as the spiritualities that are grounding that.
Ron Hamel, PhD (37:41):
Yeah. Discernment is only as good as basically who I've become and basically my spirituality. And again, it gets back to the whole notion of character and character formation. The importance of character morality was so focused on actions and judgment of action, and in some ways that's misguided. So, for all those growing up as a kid, that's all it was. I mean, it was avoid sin. That was the big emphasis. And that's really, it's misguided. The key question is who am I and who am I becoming and what's my vision? How do I see things? How do I value, what do I believe? What are my motivations? What are my intentions? What are my dispositions and what are they shaped by? And that's going to directly affect discernment. So, if that's messed up, my discernment is going to be messed up as well.
Darren Henson (38:56):
Maybe to wrap up, Ron here, a couple concluding thoughts or questions. Talk a little bit about how you see the connection between spirituality and leadership in Catholic health care.
Ron Hamel, PhD (39:14):
Yeah, I think spirituality is absolutely critical to leadership. So, as we say, so often Catholic health care is not just delivering health care, it's carrying on a ministry, it's carrying on Jesus's healing work. It's carrying on God's healing work in the world. There's an element of something more than myself in being a leader within Catholic health care. There's an element of transcendence, I think, and carrying on the Catholic health care. And so, spirituality is critical, I think for a number of reasons. One is shaping the individual leader in such a way that he or she can do the work of carrying on this healing ministry. Again, it gets back to character formation. It gets back to who am I and who am I becoming? And those values, those beliefs, those dispositions, and how we see how we read, that's absolutely critical. And I don't see how one could be a good leader in Catholic health care, in Catholic health care, maybe in health care, but in Catholic health care without a deep spirituality that helps shape who the person is, how the person sees, how the person values, what the person believes in order to sustain and nourish the work of carrying on that ministry.
(40:52):
I think the other thing is that spirituality... leaders are torn in all kinds of different directions, and I think spirituality can help them to become centered, to develop a core so that they're focused and not torn in all kinds of different directions. But that has to be nourished. That has to be attended to. And I think again, it gets back to what are some of the practices that can do that, whether it's prayer, meditation, retreats, scripture, reading, liturgy, I mean, all those various practices can help that to occur. I think it's also important because leaders are making decisions, and so it informs their decision making without... I think a deep spirituality, I don't see how leaders can make decisions that are consistent with carrying on a healing ministry. So, it helps that in decision making. So basically, it's critical to having the vision, the mindset, the character to support carrying on this sacred work. It's critical to center the individual. And it's critical, I think, to decision making, to discernment. I think frequently in Catholic health care, we confuse discernment with decision-making, and they are different things, things. So, it's critical to true discernment, I think. So, it's much needed and it should be a critical piece of obviously formation for leaders in Catholic health care,
Darren Henson (42:48):
As we say, formation is not just information. It's not just an intellectual process. I mean, maybe we start here because most of us are pretty left-brain folks, so we start with the intellectual, but we need to move deeper into then as we say the heart, to then be able to move out with those actions, if you will, into the world. And that's what some of these conversations are aimed to help us do is how do we move down into the heart and the core. Yeah, you were saying core, and I was thinking for you, these spiritual practices and your own spirituality that you have, it really is also, it's like an anchor.
Ron Hamel, PhD (43:29):
It is an anchor.
Darren Henson (43:31):
For you, similar metaphor and image, but really grounding and the ship bobs around and it still needs to have some flexibility and movement to things, but...
Ron Hamel, PhD (43:43):
But it also needs to be anchored, and that's what spirituality can do, and I think it's critical to a successful leadership in Catholic health care.
Darren Henson (43:51):
Yeah, fantastic. So Ron, earlier you referenced the prophet Elijah from the Old Testament, and I'm also mindful that you spent quite a bit of time as a sponsor member within Catholic health care, and I have the privilege of working with Sister Tere in leading sponsor formation that we do here across CHA and in sponsor formation. We sometimes talk about the prophetic voice and the role that sponsors may have in being prophetic in the work that we do. And I think a question though that we often have to ask ourselves is, how do we know when the prophetic voice might be coming forward or when perhaps it might be more of our own egoic voice that's coming forward? And so how do we maybe understand the difference between our left brain egoic side and an authentic expression of the prophetic voice?
Ron Hamel, PhD (44:51):
That's really a very good question. It's a hard question to answer.
Darren Henson (44:56):
How would you go about doing that? How do you do that for yourself?
Ron Hamel, PhD (45:01):
I think one way to do that is to test it against the scriptures. I mean, the gospel is prophetic of its very nature, it's prophetic.
(45:19):
And so, I think testing certain perceptions or certain behaviors or certain intentions against the gospel is a way to do that. And reflecting carefully on it, not just jumping on something because, oh, I really think such and such, and the prophetic voice. There's ways of speaking the prophetic voice too that I think is really pretty critical. We can shout and scream and raise fists and that kind of thing, but that's not the prophetic voice. I don't think the prophetic voice is... it's more calling people to authenticity. It's calling organizations to authenticity, to integrity, to gospel values. It's that kind of thing. And that can be done by example. It can be done gently. It doesn't have to be shouted.
(46:29):
Francis of Assisi is said to have said to his friars, let's preach the gospel always, and sometimes use words. So example is also another way to speak prophetically. He also one day said to his friars, let's go preach the gospel. They walked through Assisi, through town, and no one said a word. They got to the other side of town. His friar said, I thought we were going to preach the gospel. And he said, we just did. But that whole notion of example, and it's an example that reflects the gospel, that reflects gospel values. So, there's always a testing I think, of how does this conform to gospel values? How does this conform to discipleship? How does this conform to God's word in a sense?
Darren Henson (47:31):
And there's a humility in testing that out, if you will, with others among others.
Ron Hamel, PhD (47:39):
Absolutely.
Darren Henson (47:39):
Really, in some ways, you're inviting us to a sense of vulnerability that this may be coming up for me, if you will. I feel like this is something that potentially is prophetic or prophetic voice, but you're saying, oh, wait a second. We need to see how this fits with the scriptures, with the word of God. How does this fit with how others are seen and inviting things? And so, it really is moving us into community as well. That's part of the role of community and sponsors. That's why we have a sponsor body, if you will. There's no one individual who speaks as sponsor. They always speak as a body, as a community, as a community.
Ron Hamel, PhD (48:22):
And there's also, I think, testing it against the charism of, it depends on what the religious community is, but the charism of the religious community. How consistent is what I'm thinking with the charism of that community? But yeah, I think testing it against the community is absolutely critical. That's part of walking humbly with your gut.
Darren Henson (48:47):
This has been delightful, Ron.
Ron Hamel, PhD (48:53):
Thanks for the opportunity.
Darren Henson (48:54):
Thank you for letting us walk humbly alongside you. And I'm just left and struck with a sense that perhaps in a very analogous way, as you sat across from hiring years ago, I feel like I'm sitting across someone very similar as a person of deep holiness. So, thank you for giving us a glimmer into this part of your life that really anchors you and helps give you a vision for how you live and work and breathe in this world among us.